As others have said, I would prefer a one-time purchase, and for the personal tier that is perfect. This would include the application and support via Discord/email.
For the commercial tiers it would be more complicated. I think a one-time fee that includes like 1 year of support, updates, and access to the filament library. Then people can have an option to subscribe for continued access to support, new features and the filament library. I added support here because commercial users would most likely need support more often than a personal user.
As for me, I would most likely go for option 5. Oh, and I don't like the "Engaged User" name. Maybe just Personal, Commercial, Pro. :)
Also, I like the idea of separating out the non-commercial license benefits from the access to features and improved support and possibly making only that portion recurring.
So you keep the commercial license, but you stop getting updates after the year?
That actually would work out well for users as well if I stop making updates. They would maintain all their rights and not need to worry about continuing payments.
No subscription please. I'd like to pay for the software once. You could even do something for a low cost non commercial use, and a more expensive commercial license.
So a lifetime tier of the commercial license? One time charge of some higher number? I'm open to that idea. The non-commercial flat rate IS a single payment of $10-15 any you never lose it. And even at the sub tiers, you never lose the personal use license.
Exactly, for example fundraising for my kids activities will be sporadic and custom, being able to print up a bunch of amazing things and not worry about selling them will be one way I will be using this.
Non-commercial license for 10-15!?! Wow you’re extremely generous. I genuinely hope you don’t sell yourself short and this becomes extremely popular. Because even if someone not being honest buys that and sells them, the likely hood of being able to afford to enforce action on them is going to be zero. Let alone even steal the software and skin it then sell it... patent attorney are expensive to have on the phone for 10min. You have a killer idea, you might want to run this by a business consultant to make sure you don’t give it away unintentionally. I am not that expert.
I am genuinely rooting for you and business is too often ugly and expensive. Even if the plan was to establish the idea then sell it to Prusa or Creality for a massive profit you still need to set up the business properly to do that.
I digress, compensating you in a larger way to use the tool in perpetuity like a printer with firmware updates is very attractive to me. Therefore giving opportunity to anything I cannot foresee today.
8. All the way, I would happily pay $350 up front for lifetime commercial use. It may take a year to iron out the kinks and two years for me to really unlock the potential for a commercial niche. And with continuing app updates I know I will be able to install it on a more powerful computer in 2 years. It really would be an honor to be in on the ground floor of this. ❤️❤️❤️❤️💯🙏.
The coaching is an interesting idea too! I am mostly interested in OS support, so say I buy lifetime commercial use, but in two years I cannot install in on windows 12, or iOS17. Continuing OS updates would be all I would expect because continuing features and updates in perpetuity is something I and you cannot afford to bargain for presently.
Similar to when I bought the full Photoshop from Adobe so I didn’t need internet to use it, and within 2 years I could no longer even install it because it didn’t comply with the new OS that computers were shipping with, I got ripped off. Today I still wish I had it because although stone-age to the new cloud version, monthly sometimes doesn’t work with raising very young children. It might be a year before I can dedicate the time I want to in my business. However I see the opportunity this software provides and am happy to throw my full support behind it and make it easier for you to turn it into your desired vision with capital upfront.
One other approach would be a lifetime commercial license, and pay for updates to that license tier. Sooo if you spend 2 years developing automation into it, I can give you $200 more to integrate that permanently. It would better compensate you and keep the fear of selling lifetime licenses at too low of a price. It would also separate it from beta or minimum updates for monthly subscribers giving paid upgrades the chance to be tested and fixed before release to lifetime users. OOR I have no idea what I am talking about never having developed software before and should just be happy with monthly subscriptions 😆.
The Limited Commercial pricing is ANNUAL not monthly. So basically what you are saying, after 2 years you can pay a relatively nominal fee to get that new OS support etc.
Honestly, I hate monthly subs and the people who were able to respond to my poll hated monthly subs (though they are SUPER common in the 3D Printing space), so I decided to remove them (it's also easier for me to handle distribution without them).
But for non-lifetime commercial tiers it made sense to me to charge an annual fee which should EASILY be justifiable for anyone selling products using HueForge.
Personally I’ll probably do commercial. Though I have a question. I get charging for selling prints but why an extra fee to sell the files created from my photos? Just seems like if you made a 3d file sliced it and prusa slicer allows you to sell the 3d print but not the sliced file cause they sliced it but it’s your design. Maybe I’m thinking of it wrong. But I’m 100% in on any of it tbh. Sell or not sell. This looks like the future.
Originally I was thinking along your lines, but I realized that there is a very different marketplace being served (and very different value proposition) between the two.
More specifically - the STL sale restriction aims at people already making money by selling model files who integrate STLs generated by HueForge into their own STLs (likely through future feature upgrades). Or those models which are not economical to print and sell personally, but compelling as a self printed solution.
The markets are actually quite different. I think once people start using and finding sellable uses for HueForge, they will quickly find that the STL price delta makes a lot of sense.
I am finishing up a response to this post and the one thing I thought of is the HueForge owners exception. Nowhere in here is there mention of buying or selling HueForge project files and images (sans any model files, which HueForge will generate for you). As far as I'm concerned, I'm okay with leaving that loophole - ie ANYONE can sell project files as long as the underlying image is theirs to sell) in but I'll need feedback from the community before I finalize that decision.
Ok that makes sense and I can see why you separated it. Either way I think it’s an awesome looking program and the pricing imo is extremely fair! I paid 85$ for a year of twitter blue. 80-90$ for the highest tier of this for a year is a great value. Read another comment you replied to about the filament library stuff and I agree with them on it being apart of any/all the options. Or maybe add 2$ to a tier a month or something for access. But I think it could be a good free thing to give esp if us in the community are adding to it. Think of it as a community database in a way. Just thinking as I type lol. Much love excited for what you have coming. Plan to make some videos on it for sure!
I would chose 3 to start with, play around and see if there is enough interest in items produced that way, then definitely migrate to a Pro/Commercial licence in that case.
I hate subscription based software, however, it's totally understandable that you need some peace of mind in order to keep improving the tool while we want to have updates.
Ideally I'd prefer a one time payment, though I'd be okay paying under $100/year.
One time purchase is best for us but worst for you :). If you go for a subscription model it could also be a higher upfront price and a subsequent "maintenance fee" to keep getting updates if wanted. I personally would buy a personal tier for now
I would like a one-time lifetime price for personal use with all updates, etc. with the option of paying monthly for the Commercial and Pro. If the subscriber ends the monthly subscription, they would still have access for personal use.
I like how Lujie Chen from LuBan: Make it Big deals with subscriptions and lifetime purchases.: https://www.luban3d.com/license
While any stl his program creates can be used personally or commercially, I don't expect that from everyone so a commercial plan works for me.
I would buy 3 to start. If I found people interested in designs and I can make enough selling then the yearly option to sell prints with no subscription
Thank you for your feedback. I also don't like subscriptions, but I'm a single developer and need to figure out a way to generate ongoing income if I'm going to dedicate time to this over the long haul. I feel like the one time personal use tier should allow anyone not easily making well over the yearly fee to keep going for their own use. And you can always add commercial back in the future if you go personal use for awhile.
May 19, 2023·edited May 19, 2023Liked by Horn & Rhode
Option 1 & 5. I too am not a fan of subscription services and there are so many out there that I would just as soon not support it at all if there are only subscription options. Since you’re offering an introductory rate a one time purchase for commercial use for the first month purchases would probably help you really get initial financial support.
Maybe even adding the option for the personal use to add commercial later. I’m not selling right now but might in like a year, but I want to support you and your efforts now.
I would absolutely plan on letting people update tiers (discounted by the one they have at least for some period of time). And even in the yearly plans, if you choose to stop paying the yearly fee, you still maintain a lifetime license on HueForge Personal Use. So you only pay the commercial fees if you want to keep selling.
Hmm, this is tricky. I'm just gonna say what I would like. And keep in mind I'm a pretty direct person and mean no ill will in the way I talk - I want to help but also keep it straight since it's an important business decision for you and all of us here.
First of all, I don't sell my stuff. I print for fun and gifts, so I'm the typical personal user. I also don't like subscriptions just to access the program or basic functionalities of a program (which is just a hidden forced sub, let's be real). So point 3.
But I'd like to have the option for a commercial licence in the future in case I change my mind. The issue with that is - you can do it two ways, either a one payment like for the personal licence or a sub like you propose. A business can afford a sub for a commercial licence, which I talk about later, so I'll skip this for now. Now, the issue I have with the current offering is - I do not sell my stuff, so I don't care for this licence atm. However, I very much care about the library access and early features. For that, I'd pay. But whether it makes business sense to split this tier into "library access for personal users only" and "commercial licence with library access" - I don't know. I do know, however, that I'd prefer this to be split like that. I'd also prefer the personal library to be a one time purchase as well. Let's be real, this library is probably going to be expanded with new profiles by other users more than you. I don't see enough value to require a sub for the access, but I get why this might be a necessity to keep the development viable finantially. So I'd probably still pay for it even if it was a sub. This follows with a different issue tho:
Providing our filament profiles for the library that's paywalled with a sub should give us benefits - free access for a month or something else, idk tbh. Otherwise no one will help you with that, since you'd be taking other people's work and still expect them to pay for the monthly access to that work. It wouldn't be right and would actually make your life harder - people would just upload them for free on Printables and other people would download them instead of paying you - out of spite. It'd also make the library tier way less attractive and not worth the price, since you'd have to expand it yourself and it will take some time and effort. Why not delegate that work to the users that already do these profiles for themselves and reward them for this? Something to keep in mind. I will say outright - I'd be more than happy to make profiles for ALL my filament collection just to share them with you, even if I don't use them for myself, but if the library is locked by a sub - I will only do so if I get something out of it. Otherside I'd just feel scammed in a way. I still think a flat fee is better because of all this mess.
I still don't like subs, but I understand why it might be a necessity for you. I don't know you and you're just starting out with HueForge, so I have no reason to trust it will stay and be supported for the entirety of the yearly sub - it will change once some time passes, but not at the start. Therefore, I guess I'd go for 4. instead of 3. after all, assuming the library access stays as a sub (otherwise I'd just buy both 3. and personal library access and use the monthly pay as a Patreon kinda support). But in the future? I'd definitely pay for a yearly access instead of monthly - so 5.
As for the commercial licence with library access, assuming you split that tier ofc - yeah, this can stay as a sub. A business is going to pay for this tier with their first sale of the month. It became a common practise to offer commercial licences as a sub anyway. They can manage.
I would also be very interested in a lifetime license as long as it also comes with all sub benefits. Otherwise it's just not worth it. A personal licence also gives permament access with updates, so the only other potential customers would be:
1. Those that want sub benefits permanently because they hate subs.
2. Business owners that want a permanent commercial licence - but they're a business and let's be real, they're gonna need the library to efficiently do business. If a lifetime licence doesn't provide that, then they have no reason to buy it - they'll still need to buy the sub to access the library, but it already includes the licence, making the lifetime one obsolete.
Both those customer groups require the sub benefits to be a part of the lifetime deal - otherwise it's just not worth it.
I think that's all. I'll try to give it some more thought later, but I think I said everything I wanted to. I can't wait to get this program in my hands!
This is a long and very thoughtful response. I won't address it all tonight, but in general, I actually agree with a lot of your thoughts.
For instance, I will implement export and merge functions for the filament library for anyone to use. In fact, I expect that there will be many more filaments in the public library than I can ever catalog. As such maybe it really doesn't make sense to paywall that at all. Heck, I hope at some point that the filament companies start putting the transmissivity on the boxes along with as tolerance like the diameter. I'm finding the JAYO white I love so much for it's high Transmissivity is highly variable and it's throwing off prints. If they quality checked this, it would help a ton.
As you say, I need this to be viable long term, but I also only want to charge a fair price. That's why the personal license is so cheap, and easily upgradeable. I'm trying to make most of my money from the people making money from it, who, as you say, will make their money back on their first sale.
I also agree that a lifetime commercial license must include everything or it doesn't make sense.
I will keep thinking on what you and everyone has said. I appreciate you being blunt and honest with me.
As others have said, I would prefer a one-time purchase, and for the personal tier that is perfect. This would include the application and support via Discord/email.
For the commercial tiers it would be more complicated. I think a one-time fee that includes like 1 year of support, updates, and access to the filament library. Then people can have an option to subscribe for continued access to support, new features and the filament library. I added support here because commercial users would most likely need support more often than a personal user.
As for me, I would most likely go for option 5. Oh, and I don't like the "Engaged User" name. Maybe just Personal, Commercial, Pro. :)
Name Changed.
Also, I like the idea of separating out the non-commercial license benefits from the access to features and improved support and possibly making only that portion recurring.
So you keep the commercial license, but you stop getting updates after the year?
That actually would work out well for users as well if I stop making updates. They would maintain all their rights and not need to worry about continuing payments.
No subscription please. I'd like to pay for the software once. You could even do something for a low cost non commercial use, and a more expensive commercial license.
So a lifetime tier of the commercial license? One time charge of some higher number? I'm open to that idea. The non-commercial flat rate IS a single payment of $10-15 any you never lose it. And even at the sub tiers, you never lose the personal use license.
Exactly, for example fundraising for my kids activities will be sporadic and custom, being able to print up a bunch of amazing things and not worry about selling them will be one way I will be using this.
Non-commercial license for 10-15!?! Wow you’re extremely generous. I genuinely hope you don’t sell yourself short and this becomes extremely popular. Because even if someone not being honest buys that and sells them, the likely hood of being able to afford to enforce action on them is going to be zero. Let alone even steal the software and skin it then sell it... patent attorney are expensive to have on the phone for 10min. You have a killer idea, you might want to run this by a business consultant to make sure you don’t give it away unintentionally. I am not that expert.
I am genuinely rooting for you and business is too often ugly and expensive. Even if the plan was to establish the idea then sell it to Prusa or Creality for a massive profit you still need to set up the business properly to do that.
I digress, compensating you in a larger way to use the tool in perpetuity like a printer with firmware updates is very attractive to me. Therefore giving opportunity to anything I cannot foresee today.
I'd love to see the STLs I create, so I'll go for the All-In option 🤘🤘
You'll get your STLs in all cases, but I love to hear all in!!!
Ugh, I meant I'd like to "sell" my STLs, which I thought was the all-in option...?
Selling STLs is Professional at a minimum, yes. But you don't have to be all in lifetime for that.
8. All the way, I would happily pay $350 up front for lifetime commercial use. It may take a year to iron out the kinks and two years for me to really unlock the potential for a commercial niche. And with continuing app updates I know I will be able to install it on a more powerful computer in 2 years. It really would be an honor to be in on the ground floor of this. ❤️❤️❤️❤️💯🙏.
I might add an optional tier with some personal coaching on the app if people want to pay more....
The coaching is an interesting idea too! I am mostly interested in OS support, so say I buy lifetime commercial use, but in two years I cannot install in on windows 12, or iOS17. Continuing OS updates would be all I would expect because continuing features and updates in perpetuity is something I and you cannot afford to bargain for presently.
Similar to when I bought the full Photoshop from Adobe so I didn’t need internet to use it, and within 2 years I could no longer even install it because it didn’t comply with the new OS that computers were shipping with, I got ripped off. Today I still wish I had it because although stone-age to the new cloud version, monthly sometimes doesn’t work with raising very young children. It might be a year before I can dedicate the time I want to in my business. However I see the opportunity this software provides and am happy to throw my full support behind it and make it easier for you to turn it into your desired vision with capital upfront.
One other approach would be a lifetime commercial license, and pay for updates to that license tier. Sooo if you spend 2 years developing automation into it, I can give you $200 more to integrate that permanently. It would better compensate you and keep the fear of selling lifetime licenses at too low of a price. It would also separate it from beta or minimum updates for monthly subscribers giving paid upgrades the chance to be tested and fixed before release to lifetime users. OOR I have no idea what I am talking about never having developed software before and should just be happy with monthly subscriptions 😆.
The Limited Commercial pricing is ANNUAL not monthly. So basically what you are saying, after 2 years you can pay a relatively nominal fee to get that new OS support etc.
Honestly, I hate monthly subs and the people who were able to respond to my poll hated monthly subs (though they are SUPER common in the 3D Printing space), so I decided to remove them (it's also easier for me to handle distribution without them).
But for non-lifetime commercial tiers it made sense to me to charge an annual fee which should EASILY be justifiable for anyone selling products using HueForge.
3
I would first apply for the personal one, because of trying to figure out what it can do for me.
When it produces sellable products i mighty consider a commercial lifetime license. Very hard to give an estimate on that before actual testing it.
It's always clever to give a long period of demo, so people can get hooked, especially with complex software.
I'm pretty certain if I didn't write it, this is the approach I would take.
I would prefer option 5.
Personally I’ll probably do commercial. Though I have a question. I get charging for selling prints but why an extra fee to sell the files created from my photos? Just seems like if you made a 3d file sliced it and prusa slicer allows you to sell the 3d print but not the sliced file cause they sliced it but it’s your design. Maybe I’m thinking of it wrong. But I’m 100% in on any of it tbh. Sell or not sell. This looks like the future.
Originally I was thinking along your lines, but I realized that there is a very different marketplace being served (and very different value proposition) between the two.
More specifically - the STL sale restriction aims at people already making money by selling model files who integrate STLs generated by HueForge into their own STLs (likely through future feature upgrades). Or those models which are not economical to print and sell personally, but compelling as a self printed solution.
The markets are actually quite different. I think once people start using and finding sellable uses for HueForge, they will quickly find that the STL price delta makes a lot of sense.
I am finishing up a response to this post and the one thing I thought of is the HueForge owners exception. Nowhere in here is there mention of buying or selling HueForge project files and images (sans any model files, which HueForge will generate for you). As far as I'm concerned, I'm okay with leaving that loophole - ie ANYONE can sell project files as long as the underlying image is theirs to sell) in but I'll need feedback from the community before I finalize that decision.
Ok that makes sense and I can see why you separated it. Either way I think it’s an awesome looking program and the pricing imo is extremely fair! I paid 85$ for a year of twitter blue. 80-90$ for the highest tier of this for a year is a great value. Read another comment you replied to about the filament library stuff and I agree with them on it being apart of any/all the options. Or maybe add 2$ to a tier a month or something for access. But I think it could be a good free thing to give esp if us in the community are adding to it. Think of it as a community database in a way. Just thinking as I type lol. Much love excited for what you have coming. Plan to make some videos on it for sure!
I would chose 3 to start with, play around and see if there is enough interest in items produced that way, then definitely migrate to a Pro/Commercial licence in that case.
I hate subscription based software, however, it's totally understandable that you need some peace of mind in order to keep improving the tool while we want to have updates.
Ideally I'd prefer a one time payment, though I'd be okay paying under $100/year.
One time purchase is best for us but worst for you :). If you go for a subscription model it could also be a higher upfront price and a subsequent "maintenance fee" to keep getting updates if wanted. I personally would buy a personal tier for now
I would like a one-time lifetime price for personal use with all updates, etc. with the option of paying monthly for the Commercial and Pro. If the subscriber ends the monthly subscription, they would still have access for personal use.
I like how Lujie Chen from LuBan: Make it Big deals with subscriptions and lifetime purchases.: https://www.luban3d.com/license
While any stl his program creates can be used personally or commercially, I don't expect that from everyone so a commercial plan works for me.
I would buy 3 to start. If I found people interested in designs and I can make enough selling then the yearly option to sell prints with no subscription
I'd prefer a lifetime price, other than that, option 5 looks like a fit for me
Thank you for your feedback. I also don't like subscriptions, but I'm a single developer and need to figure out a way to generate ongoing income if I'm going to dedicate time to this over the long haul. I feel like the one time personal use tier should allow anyone not easily making well over the yearly fee to keep going for their own use. And you can always add commercial back in the future if you go personal use for awhile.
Option 1 & 5. I too am not a fan of subscription services and there are so many out there that I would just as soon not support it at all if there are only subscription options. Since you’re offering an introductory rate a one time purchase for commercial use for the first month purchases would probably help you really get initial financial support.
Maybe even adding the option for the personal use to add commercial later. I’m not selling right now but might in like a year, but I want to support you and your efforts now.
I would absolutely plan on letting people update tiers (discounted by the one they have at least for some period of time). And even in the yearly plans, if you choose to stop paying the yearly fee, you still maintain a lifetime license on HueForge Personal Use. So you only pay the commercial fees if you want to keep selling.
Only option 3 and maybe 5 as I hate subscription services. A demo would be useful. Also an option to upgrade to other levels later on.
A demo version would not export to STL, but would let you play around with the tool.
Upgrading to other levels would be supported. (minus the current level you are at)
Hmm, this is tricky. I'm just gonna say what I would like. And keep in mind I'm a pretty direct person and mean no ill will in the way I talk - I want to help but also keep it straight since it's an important business decision for you and all of us here.
First of all, I don't sell my stuff. I print for fun and gifts, so I'm the typical personal user. I also don't like subscriptions just to access the program or basic functionalities of a program (which is just a hidden forced sub, let's be real). So point 3.
But I'd like to have the option for a commercial licence in the future in case I change my mind. The issue with that is - you can do it two ways, either a one payment like for the personal licence or a sub like you propose. A business can afford a sub for a commercial licence, which I talk about later, so I'll skip this for now. Now, the issue I have with the current offering is - I do not sell my stuff, so I don't care for this licence atm. However, I very much care about the library access and early features. For that, I'd pay. But whether it makes business sense to split this tier into "library access for personal users only" and "commercial licence with library access" - I don't know. I do know, however, that I'd prefer this to be split like that. I'd also prefer the personal library to be a one time purchase as well. Let's be real, this library is probably going to be expanded with new profiles by other users more than you. I don't see enough value to require a sub for the access, but I get why this might be a necessity to keep the development viable finantially. So I'd probably still pay for it even if it was a sub. This follows with a different issue tho:
Providing our filament profiles for the library that's paywalled with a sub should give us benefits - free access for a month or something else, idk tbh. Otherwise no one will help you with that, since you'd be taking other people's work and still expect them to pay for the monthly access to that work. It wouldn't be right and would actually make your life harder - people would just upload them for free on Printables and other people would download them instead of paying you - out of spite. It'd also make the library tier way less attractive and not worth the price, since you'd have to expand it yourself and it will take some time and effort. Why not delegate that work to the users that already do these profiles for themselves and reward them for this? Something to keep in mind. I will say outright - I'd be more than happy to make profiles for ALL my filament collection just to share them with you, even if I don't use them for myself, but if the library is locked by a sub - I will only do so if I get something out of it. Otherside I'd just feel scammed in a way. I still think a flat fee is better because of all this mess.
I still don't like subs, but I understand why it might be a necessity for you. I don't know you and you're just starting out with HueForge, so I have no reason to trust it will stay and be supported for the entirety of the yearly sub - it will change once some time passes, but not at the start. Therefore, I guess I'd go for 4. instead of 3. after all, assuming the library access stays as a sub (otherwise I'd just buy both 3. and personal library access and use the monthly pay as a Patreon kinda support). But in the future? I'd definitely pay for a yearly access instead of monthly - so 5.
As for the commercial licence with library access, assuming you split that tier ofc - yeah, this can stay as a sub. A business is going to pay for this tier with their first sale of the month. It became a common practise to offer commercial licences as a sub anyway. They can manage.
I would also be very interested in a lifetime license as long as it also comes with all sub benefits. Otherwise it's just not worth it. A personal licence also gives permament access with updates, so the only other potential customers would be:
1. Those that want sub benefits permanently because they hate subs.
2. Business owners that want a permanent commercial licence - but they're a business and let's be real, they're gonna need the library to efficiently do business. If a lifetime licence doesn't provide that, then they have no reason to buy it - they'll still need to buy the sub to access the library, but it already includes the licence, making the lifetime one obsolete.
Both those customer groups require the sub benefits to be a part of the lifetime deal - otherwise it's just not worth it.
I think that's all. I'll try to give it some more thought later, but I think I said everything I wanted to. I can't wait to get this program in my hands!
This is a long and very thoughtful response. I won't address it all tonight, but in general, I actually agree with a lot of your thoughts.
For instance, I will implement export and merge functions for the filament library for anyone to use. In fact, I expect that there will be many more filaments in the public library than I can ever catalog. As such maybe it really doesn't make sense to paywall that at all. Heck, I hope at some point that the filament companies start putting the transmissivity on the boxes along with as tolerance like the diameter. I'm finding the JAYO white I love so much for it's high Transmissivity is highly variable and it's throwing off prints. If they quality checked this, it would help a ton.
As you say, I need this to be viable long term, but I also only want to charge a fair price. That's why the personal license is so cheap, and easily upgradeable. I'm trying to make most of my money from the people making money from it, who, as you say, will make their money back on their first sale.
I also agree that a lifetime commercial license must include everything or it doesn't make sense.
I will keep thinking on what you and everyone has said. I appreciate you being blunt and honest with me.